Religious News Service October 13, 2006
Lead to Call for American Protection of Pope and Ecumenical Patriarch Meeting in Turkey
Yesterday’s reported beheading of an Orthodox Priest and a recent White House omission during a meeting between President George W. Bush and Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan increased concerns about protecting the spiritual heads of the two largest Christian denominations, while in Turkey together. Catholicism’s Pope Benedict XVI and Orthodoxy’s Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew will be meeting in Turkey in late November. Turkey is the first Muslim country that Pope Benedict will visit. Until the year 1054, the Pope and Ecumenical Patriarch were presiding Patriarchs of the then-undivided Christian Church, in Rome and Constantinople.
Muslim extremists connected the Orthodox and Catholic faiths as they reportedly beheaded an Orthodox priest on Thursday, October 12 in Iraq because the Orthodox Church did not condemn Pope Benedict’s recent remarks about the Prophet Mohammad. Turkey’s extremist group, the Grey Wolves, has long focused on these two Christian faiths. One of their members, Mehmet Ali Agca, shot Pope John Paul II and, in recent years, they are suspected in bombings aimed at Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew. The Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch will soon celebrate the feast day of St. Andrew together in Muslim Turkey.
These events and concerns about a major White House omission were raised in a letter to President Bush and Administration and Congressional leaders, from Dr. Anthony J. Limberakis, the head of American lay leaders of the Christian Orthodox Church in the Order of St. Andrew. The Order includes distinguished members such as U.S. Senator Paul Sarbanes and businessman and owner of the San Diego Chargers Alex Spanos.
The letter said, “This is the first time in well over a decade that an American President did not raise with the Turkish Prime Minister the crisis that is leading to the Muslim world’s expulsion of the Ecumenical Patriarch — the spiritual head of Christianity’s second largest denomination. The timing of removing the crisis facing the Ecumenical Patriarchate from the normal list of White House concerns, and the message that this sends to dangerous elements in Turkey, is disconcerting. It coincides with a worsening trend of persecutions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and immediately precedes the visit to Turkey by Pope Benedict XVI, against whom threats have been made from Turkey.”
Turkey recently confiscated 75% of the property of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, closed its seminary and requires the Turkish Prime Minister’s approval of new Ecumenical Patriarchs. Turkey also requires that Ecumenical Patriarchs be Turkish citizens while it drives the eligible population in Turkey toward extinction. Unless changed, this will result in the termination of this nearly 2,000-year-old Sacred See begun by Christ’s Apostle Andrew and spiritual head of 250 million Christians.
More than half of the United States Senate has signed a letter to the President describing the crisis as a “religious tragedy of historic magnitude.” The Senate letter also states, “Following the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on America, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew gathered international religious leaders and produced the first condemnation of the attacks as `anti-religious’ that included Muslim leaders. Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew’s individual importance to America is reflected in the record number of Congressional co-sponsors who bestowed on him our country’s highest honor, the Congressional Gold Medal — an award also given to George Washington, Winston Churchill, Nelson Mandela and Pope John Paul II.”
The Limberakis letter went on to say, “In light of your inspiring second inaugural address, we implore you to take extraordinary Presidential-level action as soon as possible to offset any misimpression that America has deemphasized its concern about the ‘religious freedom’ of and plight of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. And, please deploy American security forces in Turkey to protect the Pope’s visit, particularly during his meetings with Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, and to protect the many American Orthodox Christians who will be present to witness this historic event.”
For more information, please contact Mike Manatos at 202-393-7790.
The Ecumenical Patriarchate is an ethnic Greek institution that is against the foundations of Turkey and Turkish nationalism. Until a Turkish Christian, who is a staunch Turkish nationalist is enthroned as patriarch of Constantinople, only then can the Ecumenical Patriarchate be allowed to remain in Turkey.
I suggest it be shut down immediately and relocated to Athens, Greece, or even Mount Athos.
The Ecumenical Patriarchate predates the Turkish conquest of Constantinople. If the complaint is that the Patriarchate is “an ethnic Greek institution”, how does the requirement that the Patriarch become a “staunch Turkish nationalist” resolve anything? Sounds to me like your only objection is that the Patriarchate does not serve Turkish interests to your liking.
Perhaps what Slobodan is saying is that it’s not the EP’s Orthodoxy the Turks disagree with, but his ethnicity. I don’t think that’s all there is to it, in that his Orthodoxy would be a problem too to both secularists and Muslims. In any case, I think Slobodan is right in that the EP’s remaining in Turkey, appointing “bishops” to lands that have ceased being Christian for hundreds of years, is traditionalism with a small “t”. In fact, the whole “institution” of the EP is really built on a false grounds in it’s present form. In that sense, it has ceased being Orthodox IMO. Although, the bishops of the OCA are trying hard to outdo him…;)
Christopher, you are correct in guessing what I mean. I am just curious what Orthodox jurisdiction you are under? I was under the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople but I suffered racist discrimination not only from other laity but also from my parish priest and Bishop. And that is because I am a Turk. My Greek American Bishop told me, I should assimilate into the Hellenik culture, which I refused and told him in the face “Father, that’s racism”.
I’ve since changed jurisdictions to the Orthodox Church in America (OCA), and my current parish priest is tolerant towards diversity.
As you can see OCA is multi-racial not just in terms of skin-colour (White, Black, Brown and Yellow) but also in terms of culture (English, Russian, Turkish, etc).
Vast majority of the Orthodox Turkish Americans feel very angry how Greeks hijacked the Ecumenical Patriarchate for their own little nationalist game.
Jesus our Lord forbid nationalism as it is racism, when he told Pilate “my kingdom is not of this world” meaning he was not a Jewish nationalist (Zionist).
Serbism, Zionism, Arabism, and in fact all nationalisms cause pain and death. See what happened in Yugoslavia? This happened because of Serb racism! The colapse of the Byzantine Empire was mainly due to Hellenism, Greek nationalism, especially when the Patriarch of Constantinople, a Greek, appointed Greek Melkite Patriarches over Alexandria, Jerusalem and Antioch, whcih were Coptic-majority and Aramaic-majority.
Let us strive for Pan-Orthodox unity by advocating a multi-ethnic local church. This requires not just spiritual will but also political will. As the Scriptures say, “Faith without works is dead”.
Slobodan,
I attend an OCA parish here in the city I moved to about 10 months ago, but I probably would attend an Antiochian parish if there was one. I spent the majority of my time as an Orthodox Christian (going on 10 years now) in various Antiochian parishes (My wife and I have moved quite a bit over the last 10 years). We converted in a Greek parish actually, but we did not stay after about the 2nd year when we were still getting questions like “your not Greek, why do you come here?” (imagine that silly Greek accent and that in your face, loud, Mediterranean disdain from a person who even though they have been here for 40 or 60 years still talks as if they got off the boat yesterday!) If it sounds like I am bitter I am not, it’s just hard not write about our experiences at the Greek parish without sounding like I am exaggerating for effect.
I can say that here in the south, the ethnic issues are minimal in an Antiochian or OCA parish. That’s because these parishes have such large convert populations. However, if you were to go to an OCA or Antiochian parish in the north east you might run into more problems Slobodan (depending on the parish of course). Don’t think the Greeks have a monopoly on ethnic “discrimination”, although that’s not quite the right term. At my last Antiochian parish in New Orleans, my wife in particular had a bad “encounter” with an ethnic Lebanese man who accused her of selling the pastries at the ethnic fair at reduced prices. It would have simply been an uncomfortable misunderstanding if he had not insisted on yelling at her. In more civilized times, he would have gotten a drubbing, but we are all too ‘polite’ these days – that, and aware of what lawyers will do 😉 Needless to say, we never volunteered there again, and will probably lay a bit lower in the years to come. We intentionally avoid the ethnic people in our OCA parish today (few of them as they are) as our experiences with them have been uniformly bad. It’s something about there cultures, or perhaps a demographic quirk that skews the kinds of people that come here from other countries. Or, perhaps its just that these cultures are filled with bad tempered, ill behaved people – it’s just “their way”. What ever the reason, I am persuaded that I prefer the more gentile and polite culture of America. This is the reason I look for an American Orthodox Church, free from all the ethnic baggage of Greece, Russia, Lebanon, etc.
I must confess Slobodan, I have to disagree with a “Pan-Orthodox unity by advocating a multi-ethnic local church.” I used to think that is a good idea, but after 10 years I do not anymore. I don’t think “multi-ethnic” is a good in practice (it really is just a collection of cliques) and frankly some cultures are better than others. No, I look for an American Church…
No doubt, as each successive generation following the original immigrants sheds a bit more of it’s ethnic identity, inter-marries, and becomes more culturally American, the congregations of the various Orthodox Churches will begin to look more similar as well. It will be more important then ever for them to the Orthodox Churches in America to maintain communications with each other and bond closer together, so that they do not drift off in different directions. In this regard, the occasional practice of Priest exchange between different Orthodox churches should be made a little more frequent.
Realizing that the Churches are becoming more “American” however, it is also important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are elements of Church tradition that provide a continuity and vital link with the Church of centuries past. There is something stirring for example about singing a church hymn that might have been sung by Orthodox Christians 500 years ago, perhaps beseeching the God’s assistance against the axe and scimitar wielding infidel hordes beyond the walls. The barbarians are gone, (or are they) but our Churches hymns ring out as loudly as ever.
The traditions of the Church knit us more closely together as a community and provide an antidote to feelings of lonliness, alienation, and anonimity that we sometimes experience in our modern lives. My father, a World War II combat veteran, past away last week, three weeks after being diagnosed with incurable lung cancer. I have to say that the efforts of the Priest of his church, reaching out to our family during this time of acute pain and need was a tremendous aid and comfort. The Priest visited my father in the hospital and provided communion and last rites when the time came. He visited us during the wake, prayed with us and made sure we were okay. At the funeral, an honor guard presented my mother with the American flag, and then the Orthodox memorial hymn was sung. With words and cadences that are both plaintive, but hopeful, it was certainly every bit as moving as “Amazing Grace”.
Dean Scourtes writes:
No doubt, as each successive generation following the original immigrants sheds a bit more of it’s ethnic identity, inter-marries, and becomes more culturally American, the congregations of the various Orthodox Churches will begin to look more similar as well.
What do you mean by culturally American? Is it by English-speaking? As English is the language of the majority, so too, minority has got to assimilate into the majority culture giving up their culture.
National unity can be done by having a single public school system that teaches in a single language as opposed to multiple public school system that teaches each in different languages. A good example of this is Singapore.
Tax dollars should not be used to fund teaching languages other than English, which can be learnt by privately funded vernacular schools at the expense of parents who wish to tutor their children in said languages. This can help assimilate children of poorer parents.
Dean Scourtes writes:
It will be more important then ever for them to the Orthodox Churches in America to maintain communications with each other and bond closer together, so that they do not drift off in different directions. In this regard, the occasional practice of Priest exchange between different Orthodox churches should be made a little more frequent.
In other for Orthodox Churches in USA to be united, we will first of all need a single autoceplous church, like say Albanian and Russia. In these two Orthodox lands, all churches use only one language Albanian or Russian respectively. So, in USA, every Orthodox church should use English. Priest exchange is very good idea as Protestant churches use this method to promote multi-racial mixing.
Dean Scourtes writes:
Realizing that the Churches are becoming more “American” however, it is also important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are elements of Church tradition that provide a continuity and vital link with the Church of centuries past. There is something stirring for example about singing a church hymn that might have been sung by Orthodox Christians 500 years ago, perhaps beseeching the God’s assistance against the axe and scimitar wielding infidel hordes beyond the walls. The barbarians are gone, (or are they) but our Churches hymns ring out as loudly as ever.
Why do you put the word American in quotes above? Are you suffering from identity crisis that you do not even know America = English-speaking? In Britain, in some immigrant areas, English cannot be spoken at all and the immigrant communities refuse to assimilate. This causes not only ethnic ghettos but also the root cause of July 7/7 attacks.
The British National Party (BNP) is demanding Arab Muslims be assimilated into English culture or be deported back to their Arab lands. If you love being Arab wanabee, why not go to Egypt? If you renounce your Arabic culture, you can live in Britain.
Dean Scourtes writes:
The traditions of the Church knit us more closely together as a community and provide an antidote to feelings of lonliness, alienation, and anonimity that we sometimes experience in our modern lives.
I do not mind Traditions of the Church as long as they are translated into English. Americans who do not speak English, have got to assimilate, and best way to force them is to deprive Greek Schools or Arab Schools of tax dollars. Only Public Schools that use English language as medium of communication will be funded by tax dollars.
Tim: I used to be just like you, a young, intolerant know-it-all outraged over being forced to worship in a “foreign” language. But as I’ve aged I’ve mellowed and learned to appreciate some of the things my Grandparents held dear. I’ve learned to be more patient and sympathetic with an Orthodox Church that has a delicate balance to maintain among different segments of their membership with different preferences.
On the one hand I believe that the Sermon, the Gospel Lesson, and the more important parts of the Liturgy should be in English since these are the essential parts of the worship service that need to be clearly understood by the congregation. On the other hand there are some hymns that sound beautiful in their original language be it Greek, Serbian, Russian or Syrian. For Orthodox Christians from those backgrounds, the ability to hear part of the worship service in the original language is a cherished link with their family history and ethnic culture. The transmission of the teachings of Christ is the primary mission of the Church, not promoting ethnic culture. But if an ethnic element can be maintained without impairment to the primary mission I don’t see the harm.
My own Priest offers his sermon in English and skillfully switches back and forth between English and Greek for the rest so that over the course of a month or two we get to hear each part of the liturgy in both languages.
Purging the worship service of every trace of ethnicity I think would make it less unique and more sterile experience for many Orthodox congregants. Today there are many Catholics who are nostalgic for the old Latin Mass, perhaps if some vestiges of Latin has been maintained, rather than being completely purged away, the transition to English would have been less jarring and disturbing.
“Tim: I used to be just like you, a young, intolerant know-it-all outraged over being forced to worship in a “foreign” language.”
Anyone, anyone???….;)
Dean, memory eternal for your father–a place of brightness, a place of verdure, a place of repose where all sickness, sorrow, and sighing have fled away.
The blessing of the Theotokos on you and your family.
We Orthodox are united by the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, by the Gospel proclaimed and lived, by our love for one another. The language or the ethnicity makes no difference unless we make and idol of it. There is no language that is foreign to me as long as the person speaking the language is singing praise to God.
Many Greek’s IMO have fallen into a heresy of identifying Hellenism with the Church. Until the hierarchy consistently and forcefully addresses the problem, the witness of the entire Orthodox Church in America is weakened.
The Antiochians have a similar problem although I think most of the ethnically centered are perfectly happy to accept non-Lebanese as Orthodox as long as they are Orthodox somewhere else. However, the strong policy of the Antiochian Archdiocese is that English be used. It is frankly, IMO, one of the reasons that we are often described as “worldly” by other jurisdictions. That is not to say there are not those who are hostile to non-Lebanese.
I don’t know much about the OCA or other slavic jurisdictions even though my very American brother is a priest in the Bulgarian Archdiocese. Both of the Bulgarian churches in his city are quite American and use English except for a little here and there.
I personally enjoy the practice at our parish at Pascha of calling out the Paschal greetings in many, many different languages which are native to or ethnic to various parishoners: English, Arabic, Greek, Romanian, Ethiopian, French, Spanish, Copt, German
Let’s stop being idol worshipers and worship the Holy Trinity who has saved us.
Dean wrote,
In 2004, I was at a luncheon at our Greek Archdiocese parish. I was in a rotten mood. My non-Greek priest friend had just been roughed up by running afoul the sensibilities of some the old, rich Greek families in the parish. He was being rudely handled by the archbishop, and had no idea what his future entailed. The service had been conducted by the other ‘Greek’ priest and had been 90% Greek with a little English. The ‘Greek’ priest was born in the U.S., by the way. But no matter.
I had my son with me, who was 3 at the time. He was cradle Orthodox. As I was waiting in line to get some food, a group of very nice Greek ladies came over to talk to me. When we had two priests, there were always two services (one English, and one Greek/English). So many of us ‘Americans’ didn’t know a lot of the Greeky-Greeks too well.
These nice little ladies came up to my son and cooed over him. Then they looked at me and said, “How does a foreigner end up in the Orthodox Church?”
I was polite, but then I started thinking about all the time my son had already been treated as ‘xeno’ in the parish by the other little kiddies. I thought about the language, and all that I had to put up with even though I was the Webmaster and very involved in the parish.
My son is cradle Orthodox. My daughter is cradle Orthodox. No one has the right to treat them as ‘xeno’ in their home parish. No one.
I went home, told my wife, and we switched to the OCA.
This isn’t about just language or your other culural niceties, Dean. This is about treating cradle Orthodox children as second-class citizens in their own churches. Abuse me all you want. I’m a grown-up and I signed up for this. But when cradles are treated as ‘non-Orthodox’ because their last name doesn’t end in ‘opoulos’ then I’ve had it.
The OCA has issues. One of the major ones is that it is such an amalgamation that it has no small ‘t’ traditions which make Orthodoxy so rich. But my son and my daughter will NEVER have little Russian/Serbian/Bulgarian ladies in their home parish asking them how it is possible that they are ‘Orthodox’ even though they are ‘foreign.’
Glen: I know a lot of Greeks can be obnoxious in just the manner you described. When I was growing up my own mother was sometimes referred to as “Amerikanitha” or “that American girl” by some of the ladies in the Church. It used to infuriate me, but lately I’m more hopeful that things will be changing for the better.
The last 30 years have seen a new generation of American-born Priests more sensitive to the needs of American-born Orthodox Christians, leave the seminaries and take assignments throughout the United Statesy. Greek-Americans, are inter-marrying with non-Greeks at a very high rate and many of their children do not speak Greek. Converts to Orthodoxy are increasingly filling all the Greek Othodox churches. Some Greek Orthodox Churches have substantial numbers of Orthodox from other ethnic backgrounds (my church has some Coptic and Ethiopian members). The occasional Priest exchanges between various Orthodox churches has also been useful in helping pull Orthodox of different backgrounds together and emphasizing our similarities. All these developments will inevitably lead to greater use of English and a lowering of the emphasis on ethnicity.
It is wrong for Greek Orthodox Churches to ignore the needs of the non-Greek speaking portion of it’s membership, but it would be equally wrong to ignore the needs of the still subtantial portion of it’s membership that feels more comfortable worshiping in Greek. So for the next 20 years or so the Greek Orthodox Church will have the challenge of trying to accomodate the needs of both, often in the same parish. It’s a delicate balance and will require a great deal of sensitivity from Priests and parishioners alike. Also I don’t think it’s neccesary to scrub away every trace of ethnic culture. There is something to be said about occasionally hearing the parts if the Liturgy recited in the exact words as they were written by Saint John Chrysostom or Saints Cyril and Methodius. We want to maintain some link and continuity with our past, even as we adapt to the needs of the present and future.
Dean –
I agree with everything you said. And I also believe that things are getting a lot better in the GOA. They have to get better. The GOA is the big dog on the block. It sets the scene for Orthodoxy in the United States. The OCA is a bit player, at best. The American Orthodox Church will never be born until the GOA decides to make it happen. That is just the reality of the situation.
Also, I don’t even think the Greeks mean to be obnoxious. The little old ladies in my story were being friendly. They didn’t mean any harm. That was the real kicker for me. The mentality was such that even when people were trying to be friendly they still ended up condenscending.
The GOA is the future of Orthodoxy in America, which is why it attracts so much attention. It isn’t that we’re all anti-Greek or whatever. The fact is, the GOA is the solution which is why we want so much from it.
In view of all the ethnic horror stories related above, let me just say the following for the record. I’ve been attending an Antiochian mission congregation for about 2 1/2 years now, a relatively small group more or less evenly divided between “cradle” orthodox and converts. It’s hard for me to imagine a more friendly, welcoming group of people, and that goes for all, regardless of ethnicity or national origin. Even outside my own congregation I feel like I’ve always received a warm welcome. Actually one of the warmest was at a heavily ethnically identified parish, where the liturgy was 60-70% in Arabic.
This isn’t meant to undercut anything anyone else has said, just to say that there are happy stories as well as disturbing ones to be heard.
Mark,
It is at the various Antiochian parishes that I have been that I have felt were most free of the “ethnic divide”. In fact, my wife and I spent almost 4 years at an Antiochian parish immediately upon leaving the Greek parish I mentioned above. It was free of this issue accept one amusing incident. Immediately after 9/11 and the start of the war on terror, the Antiochian Archdiocesan magazine “The Word” published two letters. One was the normal pacifist dribble from the NCC/WCC. The other was from the Patriarch of Antioch (in Damascus) accusing the US of being a “terrorist nation”. Well, I wrote a rebuttal which The Word actually published in the “letters to editor section”. A few weeks after we all received our copy of “The Word” with my letter in it, I received hate mail from one of our fellow parishioners! It had no return address and was unsigned – only the post mark confirmed it was mailed in our city. It said something to the effect of “leave our church”. My wife was of course concerned after our experiences at the Greek church, so we went to the priest. He said “not to worry, I get one of these about once a week” 😉 He said he had his suspicions as to who was doing this, and asked us to simply ignore it. We did, and the coward (or simply sick person) never revealed himself. I had briefly actually forgotten about the incident until my wife reminded me after the above mentioned incident at another Antiochian parish (as I was claiming we had never had to deal with the ethnic divide at an Antiochian parish before).
You know, part of what helped us through the first incident was the leadership qualities of the priest. He was a no nonsense, take charge kind of guy who understood converts (though he was “cradle”). At the second parish, the priest reacted rather weakly and did not have my trust that he would do the right thing. My wife sensed this acutely, as she is more confrontation averse than I am. I think the priest should always affirm that the “ethnic divide” is not a quality that he supports in the parish.
It is this issue that has caused us to think about not attending an Orthodox Church. What are the alternatives? I suppose we could “hide out” in a continuing Anglican or traditional RC church, or even a traditional Lutheran or Southern Baptist church. This would not be true to ourselves however, and thus far we have always found a local parish (such as our current one) that is “good enough”. However, we are weary…
Christopher –
I’m sorry for that. I’m not familiar with the Antiochian parishes, really. I know that I have read things in the Word magazine which are upsetting. It is one thing to think that bombing Northern Lebanon while leaving Hezbollah entrenched 1 mile across the border is stupid. It is quite another to praise Hezbollah.
I understand why the Patriarch in Damascus says things that are way over the top. Even though Syria relatively free and tolerant for the area of the world, it is still a Muslim nation. There is no reason, however, for hierarchs in a supposedly autocephalous church to be the same way.
On the other hand, however, while Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul were both balanced and fair in most of their statements, many RC hierarchs are also rabidly anti-American. It is one thing to say that a policy of the United States is wrong-headed or even immoral. The hard right in the U.S. says as much. It is quite another to claim that the U.S. itself is the fountain of all evil.
I hit the Bush Administration repeatedly for being too soft on Islam. I don’t support the war in Iraq because I don’t believe, fundamentally, that Islam can be reformed through political means. That puts me somewhat at odds with some hierarchs, but the Russian Orthodox Church isn’t what I would call pro-Islamic. Neither, it seems, is Pope Benedict.
Hope springs eternal.
Glen, referring to your comment:
While I agree that on the east coast, the GOA is the big kid on the block, I disagree with your statement about the GOA being the future of Orthodoxy in America. I was baptized in a Greek Church, but grew up in an OCA church. One of the most memorable experiences of my life was traveling out to Kodiak, AK for the pilgrimage to St. Herman. In Alaska, the OCA (while speaking much Russian and native Alaskan languages) is to the West Coast as the Greek Church is on the East Coast.
The OCA has plenty of problems – all of which must be addressed in the near future – but the Orthodox Church as a whole cannot survive, especially in America, without the unity of the OCA, GOA, ROCOR… etc. It is not that regional churches need to all meld into one homogeneous blob. Ethnic identity has always been a strong supporter of the Orthodox Church, as well as a strong attraction to many who are seeking support and brotherhood. We must not, however, loose sight of the purpose of the Orthodox Church. We are to “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you” (Matt. 28:19-20), regardless of ethnicity or language.
It is important that the church be a place of worship. An Antiochian bishop told a friend of mine that we should worship “in the language that we dream.” Many people have told me that the liturgy sounds more ‘churchy’ in Greek. The Greek language is eloquent and beautiful; but the purpose of language is not to give fines to the service. Language is a tool used to communicate the Word of God.
Finally, it would be wonderful someday if, without loosing cultural identity, the Orthodox Church could be one unified entity, not only through doctrine but also without the territorial battles that many regional churches are having. While that day is not today, it is a goal we should all strive for. Clergy like to talk, often without results of unification. But laity should continue to pray, as we do every Divine Liturgy, “for the peace of the whole world, for the welfare of the holy churches of God, and for the union of all.”
I would like to briefly share some thoughts on the concerns about “ethnic” traits and unhelpful experiences.
First of all I would like to mention that in my opinion the Greek language is a treasure to be preserved especially to those studying Orthodox Theology because it is a very powerful tool in our hands. It is a very specific and rich language that enables us to clearly define our beliefs and easily see slight differences in meaning that can be mostly true with just a hint of untraceable non-truth in them that would easily escape attention in modern English. Also, it is the language of the Church Fathers, so it is important for us to keep having teachers and preachers of the Faith who are able to read the Gospel from the original, the Church Fathers and Ecumenical Council teachings, writings and treaties in this language.
The language of the Liturgy or the sermons etc is a wholy different issue that I am not in a position to discuss, as I am no pastor. I just think that since the Liturgy is the reasonable sacrifice the people offer to God, they should offer it in the language they pray in. In some parishes there are more people who in fact pray in Greek, in others it is the opposite.
However still, the issue of an exact translation of the Liturgy and hymns remains, not to mention the Orthodox translation of the New Testament in English. I suspect that part of the reason there hasn’t been one fully accepted translation is precisely the difficulty in preserving the exact meaning that the Greek conveys.
As far as unfortunate misunderstandings or uncomfortable moments between non-Greeks and Greeks in the parish life I would like to express my regret but also share some points. It is true in every parish that some people have progressed much further in their spiritual lives than most. There’s many people who are there for the fellowship, for the cultural ties, to make their parents happy or because they light-heartedly converted because of marriage to an Orthodox or other reason and who all at the same time do want to love God (but usually leave it at that.)
All these people at some point may potentially pose difficulties and temptations to those striving to actually live the Sacramental life in a more profound way. It is not only non-ethnic members who may feel marginalized, but in fact “new” greek couples that move to the area and have no ties to the established families, single people, single mothers, people who are “way to Church-y” or “Monastic”, anyone at anytime can be offended or hurt, most times unintentionally.
Of course this does not happen because of Greek or Russian or whatever ethnic culture but because we as Orthodox, most of us, usually forget the fact of the Holy and Awsome Mysteries, we live a compromised life, we think that dealing with matters of the Church fulfills our spiritual noutrition needs and thus become another social club who tends to dress nice for Church and exchange niceties afterwards.
In fact if you happen to visit one of these countries and go to Church you will find the same problems. The problem in its essence is not being too ethnic, but not being Christ minded enough.
And the same holds for “non-ethnic” people too who respond to such temptations in an unwise manner.
So what is the solution?
Do we only want the “really” church-y people in our parishes? – This cannot be, Church is supposed to be the hospital of sinners.
Do we only want the “strong” converts all together or the “real” Greeks/Serbs/Russians etc? – The first will miss out on developing an everyday Orthodox culture (like for example doing your cross crying “Lord have mercy!” when encountering something very surprising), the later will miss huge opportunities to see Faith be born, brave confessions and life changing moments that can awaken their own concience and repentence (metania).
Do we, can we love our brothers as they are?
Shouldn’t we (who “know better”) worry if we cannot be at peace in the house of our Father? Or do we really think that the particular house is “so messed up” we must look for another?
In general I have seen that I feel very welcome and at home in any parish of any jursidiction, where the parish as a whole doesn’t try too hard to be happy-ville but tries to focus on Salvation and the unseen warfare. If there are too many difficulties for my spiritual life within a specific parish, I adjust my role accordingly. (I become more or less involved as appropriate). God uses everyone and anyone as He sees fit and let us not doubt that He does care for every single parish and every single one of His children.
Satan will not sit still and allow us to happilly enjoy our Orthodoxy without trying to cast temptations our way. It is up to us to give him the opportunity to dance his happy dance or not.
We all have the same problems whether Greek, OCA, Antiochian. We are all prone to xeno-phobia even if we are converts, it is just going the other way so it doesn’t seem xeno to us. Is it any different to say, why can’t “they” be more American that to say why can’t “they” be more Greek, Arabic, Slavic? Do we really know for certain that the Greeks or Antiochians have handled our money any better that the OCA? Jesus told us that we are blessed if we are persecuted for righteousness sake. That persecution does not only come from outside the Church.
It might be that the proper answer to xeno-phobia is to simply say, I am here because God drew me here (if that is the reason). The friendly Greek ladies might have been taught by a humble truthful response. To accept those kind of comments without rebutal is IMO a mistake.
Obviously, if the priest is not strong and supportive and the xeno stuff not friendly, then leaving for another parish or jurisdiction may be the only alternative. That in fact happened to me. Several of the old time Lebanese men in the parish that orginally received my family and me did not like the fact that my non-Lebanese wife was choir director and chantor. The anger and the verbal assualts became too much and the priest was a mess–he later left the Orthodox Church for the Byzantine Catholic and was subsequently de-frocked. We transfered to our current parish with a strong priest and a loving community.
We bear one another’s burdens whether we want to or not. That can only be done sucessfully in love and prayer. Humble confrontation is sometimes necessary as part of building up the Body of Christ.
Dia,
May I respond to some of your comments, not so much as a “refutation” but more as a springboard to my own:
“Of course this does not happen because of Greek or Russian or whatever ethnic culture…The problem in its essence is not being too ethnic, but not being Christ minded enough.”
Well, yes and no. Cultures ARE different. I spent quite a bit a time in the “American ethnic jurisdictions” I grew up Unitarian Universalist. Spent some time in Church of Christ, and Episcopalian. I spend some time today in Southern Baptist churches when visiting family because my in-laws are devoted and frankly, I like the orthodox (with a small “o”) teaching and preaching I here there. Let me say that I have never, ever experienced the
that I have experienced in the Orthodox Church. My wife has never, ever been moved to tears because some in your face greeky greek (or arab, or whatever) just insulted here several times over in an american/protestant/western church. My wife is a physician who is tough, smart, and not easily moved to tears. I have never, ever found it difficult to restrain myself from kicking teeth in and breaking arms (I’m a competitive Judo player 😉 in any other church except the Orthodox Chuch. Now your right, this is not an “Orthodox” problem per-se except to the extant that leadership and parishes do not adequately address it – and they don’t, they pretend it does not exist. In fact, I have never met an ethnic or “cradle” Orthodox person that has any idea how bad it is (or is it a head in the sand mentality?) excepting the one cradle priest I mentioned in my earlier post. In fact, I believe it to be so bad (this conflict of cultures) that I have given up on the “pan-orthodox” idea as hopelessly naive. I want nothing short of an “American” parish – an ethnicity that understands how to treat people with common decency and simple respect.
“So what is the solution?”
An American Orthodox Church free from the ethnic baggage of Greece, Lebanon, Russia, etc.
“Do we, can we love our brothers as they are?
Shouldn’t we (who “know better”) worry if we cannot be at peace in the house of our Father? Or do we really think that the particular house is “so messed up” we must look for another?”
Yep, sometimes things are so messed up you must look for another. For example, if you were a parent of pre adolescent or adolescent boys in the Roman church, how would you respond if your bishop had a known habit of rotating sexually dysfunctional priest around his diocese? You can not really claim to “live in peace” in such an aggressively dysfunctional environment can you? Yes yes, there are sinners everywhere I know. The fact is that some houses of worship are far better places of worship, prayer, and simple moral/Christian decency than others. I think anyone who does not admit the strange and dysfunctional place of American Orthodoxy is not being honest with himself.
Look at the OCA (my present “jurisdiction”). One out of nine bishops have reacted with anything at all resembling leadership, honesty, and Christian moral prescription. These men are not to be trusted to run a hot dog stand, let alone a Christian Church. What if instead of something relatively minor like a few million dollars, the temptation had been aggressive sexually dysfunctional priests? Think the OCA would have been any better than the RC?? Clearly the answer is no.
Note 20:
I am not sure what “xeno-phobia” has to do with it. To admit that cultures are different, and some have qualities that are to be desired in more abundance than others, is not to irrationally dislike something…
“We all have the same problems whether Greek, OCA, Antiochian.”
Nope (if by “same problems” you mean the ethnic divide in the same proportion). It is widely know and admitted that the Greeks have it worse, and the OCA/Antiochians have it least. This is also my experience, and most everyone else’s. Let’s not artificially “level the playing field” here…
“To accept those kind of comments without rebuttal is IMO a mistake.”
Agreed. Lord help the next person who gives my wife some ethnic poison, and Lord help me in convincing her to remain Orthodox…
Note 20. The problem your wife faced with the ethnic slurs was not due to ethnicity, but the problem we Orthodox have in dealing with people who are not really Christian in orientation. All churches have this problem although it expresses itself differently. Put another way, the sociology of dysfunctional parishes is similar across denominational boundries although the dysfunction is express in terms native to the specific community. It’s a problem of discipline. In America, everyone is a chief when it comes to Church polity. Scripturally this is not true of course, since the scriptures divided believers (in terms of parish discipline) between sheep and wolves. American churches, including the Orthodox, just have no way of removing people from the community (and leadership) that don’t belong there.
As a result, the priest, if he is strong, often ends up as blocker for the good people against the antagonists. It’s a difficult position but one in which he can be successful is he knows scripture and has the courage to confront the antagonist and knows how to do it. (Confronting antagonists has to be deftly done. One seldom, almost never, confronts them face to face. More on this some other time.) The Holy Spirit works according to the scriptural decrees, and if one subverts the work of Christ in the parish he is a wolf. Prayer is often the most effective way of neutralizing his destructiveness.
If we were a biblical church, that is , if our decisions were actually made according the scriptural mandates, after two warnings the antagonist would be dismissed. Unfortunately, priests no longer have the authority to dismiss them. Nevertheless, that is the direction the Holy Spirit works, and if the priest is strong he will discern the Spirit, act within it, and God may (and often does) bring the dismissal to pass. In this way, the priest prevails against the antagonists so that the serious and necessary work may continue unhindered. Again, prayer is often the most powerful and effective weapon (yes, weapon — think of David’s prayers in the Psalms here.)
A weaker priest, or a priest constitutionally unable to deal with the level of conflict, won’t fare well under the pressure. Further, a priest who does not understand the deeper dimensions of these kinds of conflicts won’t know how to deal with them either, and will either buckle under the pressure, or allow his priesthood to be redefined into a non-effective role. Fr. Aris Metrakos wrote about this in Brother Can You Spare a Paradigm.
These dynamics afflict all denominations, BTW. It is part of the secularization of American culture.
“The problem your wife faced with the ethnic slurs was not due to ethnicity”
Fr. Jacobse, not only do I have to disagree with you, in fact I think it is either naive or disingenuous of you to assert this. Are you really going to say that greeky greek (or lebanese or russian), the in your face and general rudeness of the Mediterranean world is part of American culture in general or the American protestant scene in particular?
“All churches have this problem…”
I disagree. Perhaps you can cite an example. I never had a problem with a culture of in-your-face ethnic focus at say, the Unitarian ‘church’ (understand I understand the Unitarians are not really a ‘church’ ;). I would challenge you to go to a Unitarian church and find someone saying something like; “why would you come here – your not Unitarian” or “leave OUR church” for anything other than doctrinal reasons (e.g. you walk into a Unitarian church and proudly and loudly proclaim the doctrine of the Trinity 🙂 Never had this problem anywhere other than an Orthodox Church.
“…although it expresses itself differently.”
Ok, give me an example of how the ethnic problem in American Protestantism express itself.
“Put another way, the sociology of dysfunctional parishes is similar across denominational boundaries although the dysfunction is express in terms native to the specific community.”
Well, I thought we were talking about an problem in particular. And another thing, what does it add to say that other churches have other problems that express themselves in different ways? This is sort of like proclaiming the fact of the fallen world is it not? My wife was part of an Methodist church during here childhood where the charismatic and well liked pastor decided to commit adultery with a married women in the church (I know, it takes two ;). When the rest of the leadership successfully handled this situation (i.e. threw him out of his position – not to be compared to the OCA’s dismal response so far) he and this women stole several hundred thousand dollars and took off to Nevada. The church eventually had the man prosecuted in an attempt to get some of the money back. All that seems a reasonable response – am example of an ethnically American church doing the right thing.
What you say about the priest seems reasonable, until:
“These dynamics afflict all denominations, BTW. It is part of the secularization of American culture.”
Just not sure what you are talking about here. Greeky greek does not affect a continuing Anglican church!! One thing that bothers me about the Orthodox Church is that when you start discussing it’s problems, there is this tendency to generalize and say things like “well, all churches suffer from sin and have problems”. So what!! How can you deal with a problem unless you acknowledge it and start dealing with it in particular?? Contrary to what you say in your first sentence, the problem my wife and I have faced several times over is an ethnic problem – a problem of people confusing there ethnicity with their Church, and our ethnicity not mixing well with the rude ethnic culture of the Mediterranean. It is NOT a problem to be found in American religious scene in general. I have attended churches far more secularized than the Orthodox Church and never ran into anything resembling this sort of problem – I think the tie in to secularization is a false one. IF the problem is “people who are not really Christian in orientation”, then why did we not experience this problem in the Episcopal church (to use but one example) which is chalk full of people who would not know a Christian if one walked up and bit them?? Answer: culture – no baggage of in-your-face ethnicity that allows them to express themselves in inappropriate (for our culture) ways. The proud pagan of the Episcopal church would not walk up to my wife in the middle of a public function and accuse her of stealing at the top of his voice (i.e. what the man said she was doing by allegedly giving away the pastries – in essence, he accused her of either doing this on purpose or not being able to count). He would have the common good sense (being the proud pagan he is) to say something to her in a low tone of voice, or even more likely, would have asked a few questions to try to ascertain if in fact she was miscounting or was it merely his error in perception.
If I seem harsh about all this I have to say I regret it, and being a person of American ethnicity I would much rather deal with this in a less public way – but after 10 years of denial by so many in the Orthodox Church I am going to speak what I know about this – the Orthodox Church has an ETHNIC problem, and denial is not a river in Egypt…
Fr Jacobse,
I apologize in that I thought you were responding to my post but I now see you were responding to Michael Bauman! I would ask you remove it, but I since I obviously disagree with your take on this matter in general it says basically what I think needs to be said about this issue…
Look, I have had my share of run in with these rude types. I push back, often hard, but then I am in a position to do that. All I can say to this specific example is that many mid-easterners are still tribal in their orientation. They cannot separate Church from the tribe, and because they are intimidated by educated Americans and fundamentally don’t understand rule by law and precept, they think screaming louder gives them more authority. It is crass and rude but that is the way they are.
Still, the churches are changing, in demographic terms, very fast. 80% of the marriages in the GOA are intermarriage (Greek to non-Greek). This has got the hiearchy, particularly in Constantinople, worried. But you see mixed marriages all over. Parishes outside the larger cities are increasingly American in orientation. Those that are not are dying.
Briefly, I would like to note that Father’s response is pretty much to the point. Many people who are not in Church to be transformed and worship God but because of their ethnic heritage, or because they think of the Church as the business they ought to run successfully are indeed the “wolves” amongst the sheep. Also apart from the wolves, rude people do exist in general in all cultures. I can assure you though that in-your-face rudeness and dismissive/derogatory comments or insults are not a trait acceptable in the Mediterranean or as far as I know anywhere else.
Both inevitably act within the Church community the same way they would in the street.
These people you can be sure will also offend people of their own ethnicity but in other ways and with other instigating events. For example with the very hurtful weapon of ill-intentioned gossip/backstabbing. ( a problem well exhibited in American society too; (bullies, poisonous work environments, mean high school/sorority girls etc)).
In addition to the rude people, there also is the problem of assimilation whereby people unintentionally make comments that can be perceived differently by a native. Orthodoxy exhibits this problem in a pronounced way because right now most (or a very large segment of) Orthodox people have non-American cultural backgrounds. Some parishes are more assimilated to American culture than others (because their members are 3rd generation and beyond, intermarried etc). However an old Greek lady cannot be assimilated automatically or by force. Some ways that are perceived as rude to an American cannot change before the offender realizes that the new land does not accept those specific ways.
For example greeks when the joke around with their friends tend to lightly hit each other on the lap/hand/back when exclaiming “com’on! No way!” If you do this to an American friend they will probably be surprised and feel a little uneasy but the greek kid won’t know this beforehand, they’ll first to have to observe the dismissive reaction to realize that that’s a cultural trait they better avoid.
When in Rome do as the Romans. (similarly if you pat a greek guy’s behind to congratulate him for a good job in soccer (as in football) you can be sure you’ve severely offended him)
Forgive me as I am diverging above from my main point, that this assimilation is not an “Orthodox” problem but a problem of any immigrant group and it is seen in Orthodox Churches because they have a large immigrant population (much of which shows up in Church for reasons others than Church).
I strongly agree that the priest must be addressing this and direct the parish to the realization that they are not an ethnic club but the people of God commanded to evangelize and be missionaries through their example to others in the larger community. With this mindset people also realize they need to welcome and rejoice for the converts/new members help build them up and be allowed to learn by them at the same time recognizing that thus the apostolic and ecumenical vocation of the Church is fulfilled.
I know the above fails to deliver my sympathy and I do not wish to sound insensitive, or bury the issue either as I agree many ethnic people fail to realize that converts are in fact the fulfillment of the mission of the Church and do act as if they own the Church. I have seen it with my friends and as I’ve mentioned before with newcomers to town as well even if they were of the same ethnic background.
“All I can say to this specific example is that many mid-easterners are still tribal in their orientation. They cannot separate Church from the tribe, and because they are intimidated by educated Americans and fundamentally don’t understand rule by law and precept, they think screaming louder gives them more authority. It is crass and rude but that is the way they are.”
Interesting – not sure I have heard an explanation as to why these various ethnicities suffer from this problem…
I have been a member of parishes in GOA, OCA, Bulgarian and Antiochian Archdioceses in this country, and I’m kinda shocked by some of the comments. First of all, I find it slightly ironic that somebody talking about ethnic intolerence would refer to Greeks as “greeky greeks” which is obviously not very endearing.
Secondly, having known innumerable Greeks (my godparents being amongst them), you have to realize that sometimes Greeks don’t convert well into American culture. Their culture is different, and being very blunt and up-front is not frowned upon as it may be here.
In all these parishes, which included various ethnicities, I’ve found that simply learning a few phrases of each individual culture’s language goes a long way. Making demands on them becoming American without willing to concede a bit to their culture is somewhat of a double standard.
Thirdly, the Orthodox world is at war. Constantly. Greece was under Ottoman oppression, Russia under the Soviet Communists, and the Middle East is currently in turmoil. Looking at this, it’s no wonder many people are so adament about preserving their culture. They can remember actually FIGHTING for it.
Do I think culture is bad? No. The point of America is to be a cultural melting pot. And I freely admit there are some xenophobic ethnics in various jurisdictions in this country. Yet, on the whole, I think a lot of this boils down to the age-old cultural misunderstandings that have plagued our world since time immemorable. In Christ, I am German. But I am also Greek, Russian and Lebanese.
Basil,
Your right, “greeky greeks” is not very enduring but it does convey what we are talking about, and is widely known. Besides, I was not really talking about “ethnic intolerance” in the same way you think I was. Like I said upstream, I am not interested in “pan-orthodoxy” or multi-ethnic whatever. I don’t think it works in practice. I am interested in an American ethnic church.
“In all these parishes, which included various ethnicities, I’ve found that simply learning a few phrases of each individual culture’s language goes a long way. Making demands on them becoming American without willing to concede a bit to their culture is somewhat of a double standard.”
So, would you say that my wife and I singing in the choir (in greek) – two of about 7 regular singers – was not an attempt to meet them halfway? How about helping out with the ethnic fest, including spending hours in the kitchen learning and preparing Greek food? Gosh Basil, where did we go wrong here? I guess we just did not come out of our shell enough (sarcasm rightly detected)
“Yet, on the whole, I think a lot of this boils down to the age-old cultural misunderstandings that have plagued our world since time immemorable.”
Well yes and no. In particular, which is what we were talking about here. Like I said upstream, throwing your hands up and saying “it’s all part of the fallen world” does nothing to help…
New Martyred Soldiers For Christ Our Lord
New Martyr Monk-Soldier Roman & New Martyr Evgeny
Compiled By Archimandrite Nektarios Serfes
Boise, Idaho
USA
When one of our associates was in Moscow last year, just about every parish bookstall had a Xeroxed notice about a young soldier named Evgeny, who had been captured by the Chechnens along with five of his buddies.
Chechnens promised to spare the young Russians their lives if they converted to Islam. The others agreed, but Evgeny refused, insisting that he was an Orthodox Christian. The Chechnens beheaded him and subsequently sent his severed head to his mother as a sort of memento. This young lad had been recognized everywhere as a (Moscow & environs, Sergiev Posad, Murom, Diveevo, Arzamas) martyr, in a spontaneous, popular movement of piety. His picture was everywhere, usually with the caption “Martyred Soldier Evgeny”. He was martyred on his 18th birthday, 6 months after he started his service.
Chechnen field commander Rusland Haihoroev beheaded Evgeny, after Evgeny denied conversion to Islam and refused to give up his cross (which by the way was part of the medal for bravery). Many months his mother searched for his body, and finally after paying $500, was shown the forest where he was buried. She found the bodies of 4 more boys along with his. A giant wooden cross has since been erected on his grave. His own cross, the one that he refused to give up, his mother, Lubov Radionova, has donated to St. Nicholas Church in Ordinka, Moscow.
The New Martyr Evgeny the Soldier was canonized on August 20th. A Church in his name is to be build in Hankala, near Groziniy. It will be the only Orthodox Church in Chechnya.
Source: Orthodox Heritage. The Greek Orthodox Brotherhood of St. Poimen. Florence, Arizona. Volume 01, Issue 1 January 2003 p. 4.
For more info click http://www.serfes.org/lives/NewMartyredSoldiers.htm