BreakPoint Albert Mohler June 14, 2005
“We have figured out your problem. You’re the only one here who believes in God.” That statement, addressed to a young seminarian, introduces Dave Shiflett’s new book, Exodus: Why Americans are Fleeing Liberal Churches for Conservative Christianity. The book is an important contribution, and Shiflett offers compelling evidence that liberal Christianity is fast imploding upon itself.
Shiflett’s instincts as a reporter led him to see a big story behind the membership decline in liberal denominations. At the same time, Shiflett detected the bigger picture–the decline of liberal churches as compared to growth among the conservatives. Like any good reporter, he knew he was onto a big story.
“Americans are vacating progressive pews and flocking to churches that offer more traditional versions of Christianity,” Shiflett asserts. This author is not subtle, and he gets right to the point: “Most people go to church to get something they cannot get elsewhere. This consuming public–people who already believe, or who are attempting to believe, who want their children to believe–go to church to learn about the mysterious Truth on which the Christian religion is built. They want the Good News, not the minister’s political views or intellectual coaching. The latter creates sprawling vacancies in the pews. Indeed, those empty pews can be considered the earthly reward for abandoning heaven, traditionally understood.”
Capitalism is not blessed by God as the perfect economic system. It is man made and therefore subject to sinful excess and abuse. The real problem with capitalism is not that people make money. As long as we use the resources we have in a spirit of Chrisitanity that is not a problem.
The real problem with capitalism is the tendency to abandon the sense of the sacred and make everything, including people, capital. In other words, people and the natural environment are just natural resources that are there to be exploited (which means used efficiently in the economic sense). The ignorance of the sacred and the capitalization of man and nature lead to a lot of problems that any Christian cannot in good conscience condone. The most extreme form of capitalism which was fueled by Social Darwinism in the late 19th early 20th century was no better than Communism and little different that Fascism in its tyranny and destruction. However, unlike Fascism, Communism, mercantilism or even socialism which are inherently anti-Christian, capitalism can be Christianized if we work at it. The adaptability of capitalism is that, unlike any other economic system of which I am aware, allows for individuals and groups of individuals to act in accord with their own principals and values without being forced into a specific type of business model or practice at the point of the state sword.
Certainly, we must be on the guard against greed, theft, etc., etc., but capitalism does a far better job of self-correcting the excesses, inequities and outright abuse than any other economic system extant. Capitalism is far more at home with the spirit of Christian freedom, charity, and even asceticism than any other economic system I know. Yes, our system gives excessive monetary reward to frivolity, vulgarity, carnality, and immorality than I would like, while tending to under reward substance, virtue, and peace. However such imbalance is not the fault of the system itself, but the fault of the culture.
If you want a more Christian economy, live a more Christian life. If enough folks live as Christ commands, the culture will change as will the economy. In the meantime work for specific remedies to specific wrongs and require accountablity as to the outcome.
Caneel writes: “You are the proverbial Liberal with his feet firmly planted in mid-air, and I am not willing or able to do the Sisyphean job of raising the floor to your level.”
The gist of your reply is that twice now I have asked you some very simple questions and you refuse to answer them. The purpose of a discussion list is to discuss, not to pontificate and then vanish in a cloud of arrogance. I don’t know what you are in the real world, but here you come off like a pompous little twit who can’t defend his own position when someone questions it.
Jesus told us that the poor will always be with us. But this simple statement of a thoroughly annoying fact should not be construed as a direction to actually acknowledge them when they wander into your field of vision. I am reminded of the last time this passage from Matthew was quoted to me. It was by dear Juanita after she informed me that she was resigning from Golden Door Spa. As she carefully scraped the deep-cleansing Italian mud off my troublesome t-zone area, she said: “For you have the pores always with you; but me you will have not always.” Her words moved me to tears.
Yes, it was lovely of Jesus to make a fuss over the riff-raff. It is for precisely such quaint notions that I adore Him so! Jesus, going way overboard in trying to be an affable Savior (in contradistinction to the vain and spiteful God depicted in the Old Testament, whom the Jews so inexplicably still cling to), did say a few passing words about trying to do something nice for the impoverished. Certainly, a lovely box of chocolates on occasion is always appreciated and never remiss. Oversize balloons that say things, however, are simply annoying surrogates for people too selfish to spend time thinking of a truly thoughtful gifts and only provide people with helium with which to make annoying sounds. They are to be avoided – even when presented to street people without the social acumen to know how truly annoying such a gift is.
Anyway, I would be more than happy to instruct you on how to deal in a somewhat Christ-like manner with people you would never invite to your home. While I can’t actually think of a specific time I helped a poor person (other than the Jenkins down the street, who all drive domestic vehicles), I’m quite certain that I would do something for those dreadful people should the appropriate occasion arise. Given the right set of circumstances, I certainly would try to exemplify the loving generosity to the shiftless, filthy poor that our Blessed Savior suggested we might wish to try on occasion. Nevertheless, I have never met a destitute person with the morality and purity of soul worthy of my time, much less pecuniary dispensation. I am sure that, one day, I shall meet someone who pesters me on the street who can do an absolutely rip-roaring rendition of some foreign hobo from Les Miserables, and I will be so thoroughly enchanted and entertained that I will be selflessly moved to have one of my people give him some loose change.
Taffy, that was lovely. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Betty
Jim,
I am 6′-6″ and 220 pounds, thus, to correct you mistaken impression of me, I am not a little twit, but a tall and big one. Pompous? I don’t know, maybe to you it seems that way. If I have a choice here, then I would go with the Oxford Dictionary definition that says, ‘Pompous, characterized by pomp and splendour’, instead of the other definition of being a ‘pompous ass’. Which one had you in mind?
You write that I: ‘can’t defend his (my) own position when someone questions it.’
That is not quite the case. Although I am pretty close to being omniscient, I admit that some things still escape me. One such is that I am willing and able to defend my positions and answer intelligent questions; however, you do neither seem to have intelligent questions nor to understand topical answers. I tried straight answers; I tried funny answers and finally resorted to sarcasm, but to no avail. You do not appear to have the theoretical foundations to conduct a rational discussion on the topic and, unfortunately, also seem to lack a sense of humour to get the rest.
Nevertheless, have a good live.
Your pompous (in the ‘correct’, late Latin, meaning of the word) tall and big twit
Caneel
Dean,
what happened? Did the earth’s axis trip? I find myself in agreement with you.
“It is possible to support a capitalist economic sytem, while also supporting safeguards that protect that system from its own worst excesses, and align it more closely with Christian and humanitarian moral objectives.”
YES! Absolutely…
“A capitalist system that allows the wealthy and powerful to exploit the poor and pressure the middle class while creating growing disparities in wealth and income is not healthy and will produce conditions of social injustice condemned by Judeo-Christian moral and ethical precepts.”
ABSOLUTELY! Any system that “exploits anyone” is not a capitalistic system but a criminal one!
“We see numerous examples in the Old Testament where Israel and other nations were punished by God for oppressing the poor and ignoriring their suffering. In the New Testament, Jesus Christ predicted the destructtion of the Temple, not as a form of idle crystal ball gazing, but to make the point that societies that aleinate themselves from God are on a path to their own self-destruction.”
YES!And have we ever alienated ourselves from God…!
“I agree that Government intervention is by no means the only method or manner in which to help the poor. But it is one tool and sometimes it is the appropriate tool, especially when the reasons for poverty are structural, systemic and macro-economic. To say that we are not going to choose the most effective means to help the poor because of an ideological prejudice, is to put ideology before God.”
Man what happened here? You are absolutely right! Now we can talk…
It must be the weather, or the full moon…. this IS NOT RIGHT… 🙂
Caneel writes: “I tried straight answers; I tried funny answers and finally resorted to sarcasm, but to no avail. You do not appear to have the theoretical foundations to conduct a rational discussion on the topic and, unfortunately, also seem to lack a sense of humour to get the rest.”
Theory is great. But the theory has to be played out in the details. Theories, if acted upon, have consequences. The questions I’ve asked relate to life and death consequences.
The current system of social programs has many problems. It’s wasteful. It often doesn’t do what it purports to do. But under the current system we in fact don’t have legless diabetics begging in the street for food. We don’t have children scouring through garbage dumps for scrap metal. I’ve talked to people from countries where that happens. So having a system like that is a real possibility. In many parts of the world it’s the norm.
You want to change the system. That’s great. But it’s fair to ask, under your proposed system, what happens on the ground once the social programs you don’t like are eliminated. This seems like a very straightforward, intelligent question to me.
Having worked for years with the details of Medicare and Medicaid programs and other public medical programs, I developed an appreciation for the scope and complexity of such programs. So when someone suggest that we shouldn’t do that sort of thing any more, well, I’m just naturally curious as to how that works.
So tell you what — rather than pestering you with any more specific questions, you go ahead and try to think through what the consequences of your theories would be, and when you come up with something, let me know.
How can we reconcile claims of a new enthusiasm for conservative churches with poll numbers indicating growing disenchantment with the political agenda to which those have churches aligned themselves?
“Recently only forty-two percent of those polled said they approved of the way Mr. Bush is handling his job, a marked decline from his 51 percent rating in the aftermath of the November election, when he embarked on an ambitious second-term agenda led by the overhaul of Social Security. Sixteen months before the midterm elections, Congress fared even worse in the survey, with the approval of just 33 percent of Americans, and nearly three-fourths saying Congress did not share their priorities.”
“Poll Shows Dwindling Approval of Bush and Congress”, NY Times, June 17, 2005.
In the November 2004 election the religious right closely aligned itself with President Bush and the Republican congress. The recent polls suggest that the very narrow moral agenda of both the Republican party and the Christian right excludes and ignores issues important to average Americans and American Christians. These would include access to health care, retirement security, the environment, and the desire for an exit strategy from Iraq.
To get y’all back on topic – Here is some interesting information from The Episcopal News Service dated March 30.
Please note that the both the GOA and the OCA are in the top 25 denominations and that combined together they would be at #11 with a 2.5 million membership. In addition, the OCA is growing at 11.11%!!! The NEXT TWO fastest growing “churches” are the Mormon “church” at 1.71% and the Jehovah Witnesses at 1.82%.(And technically the requirement of belief in the Trinity removes these groups from the category of Christian.) All other Christian Churches are growing at a much slower pace.
The number of Orthodox Christians in America could double within the next 5 years if we continue to grow at this pace. I am not concerned about jurisdictional boundaries! 🙂 From what I could find there are approximately 3 million Orthdox in the USA today.
Mainline Protestant churches no longer dominate
NCC Yearbook’s list of top 25 U.S. religious bodies
Wednesday, March 30, 2005
[National Council of Churches] Pentecostal and historic African American churches are increasingly visible on the U.S. religious landscape and mainline Protestants no longer dominate a list of the 25 largest American churches, reports the National Council of Churches’ 2005 “Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches.”
Three of the largest 25 churches in the U.S. are Pentecostal and six are African American, the yearbook reports.
The list includes the rapidly growing Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the *****Greek Orthodox Church****, *****the Orthodox Church in America*****, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and – largest of all – the Roman Catholic Church. (****my ‘highlights’)
The Catholic Church remains the largest faith group in the U.S. with 67,259,768 members and a growth rate last year of 1.28 percent. The second largest denomination in the U.S. is still the Southern Baptist Convention with 16,439,603 members and a growth rate of 1.18 percent. The United Methodist Church is third largest with a reported membership of 8,251,175 and a growth rate of .002 percent.
The Church of Jesus of Latter-day Saints, with a reported membership of 5,503,192, rose from the fifth to the fourth largest church in the U.S. The yearbook noted that the church “continues to grow remarkably” at a rate of 1.71 percent last year.
*****A reported surge in membership of the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) has placed the communion on the list of the largest American churches. The Syosset, N.Y., based church grew 11.11 percent to 1-million members, according to the yearbook.******(****my ‘highlights’)
Other churches in the top 25 that continued to grow in 2004 are the Assemblies of God, 2,729,562 members and a growth rate of 1.57 percent; the Episcopal Church, 2,320,221 members and a growth rate of .57 percent; the African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, 1,432,795 members and a growth rate of .14 percent; and Jehovah’s Witnesses, 1,041,030 members and a growth rate of 1.82 percent.
Churches that declined in membership in 2004 are the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, 4,984,925 members, down 1.05 percent; the Presbyterian Church (USA), 3,241,309 members, down 4.87 percent; The Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod), 2,488,936 members, down .95 percent); American Baptist Churches in the USA, 1,433,075 members, down 3.45 percent; and the United Church of Christ, 1,296,652 members, down 2.58 percent.
The data is gathered by the churches in 2003 and reported to the yearbook in 2004.
Mission Trends
In an article, “Whither Global Mission?” Lindner reported that mainline Protestants have increased their mission activity for the first time in a quarter century. That, combined with the still vigorous mission impulses of evangelical and Pentecostal churches, shows that American Christians are “attempting great things” in mission, Lindner said.
Mainline church agencies reported an increase of 600 missionaries over the number reported in 1966, Lindner noted, citing a January 2005 article in the International Bulletin of Missionary Research.
Agencies affiliated with the Interdenominational Foreign Mission Association gained about 1,400 missionaries since 1966, and agencies affiliated with the Evangelical Fellowship of Mission Agencies gained about 8,000 missionaries in the same period, the article said.
Of the estimated 6,453,628,000 persons on earth in mid-2005, about 33.1 percent consider themselves Christians. The percentage is expected to rise to 33.6 percent in 2025.
In mid-2005, most of the world’s Christians – 1,118,992,000 – are Roman Catholics. Independents account for the next largest group of Christians (426,672,000), followed by Protestants (375,814,000), Orthodox (219,501,000), Anglicans (79,710,000) and “marginal Christians” (34,150,000).
U.S. Membership Denominational Ranking: Largest 25 Denominations/Communions 2005 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches
The Catholic Church – 67,259,768
Southern Baptist Convention – 16,439,603
The United Methodist Church – 8,251,175
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – 5,503,192
The Church of God in Christ – 5,449, 875
National Baptist Convention, U.S.A., Inc. – 5,000,000
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America – 4,984,925
National Baptist Convention of America, Inc. – 3,500,000
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) – 3,241,309
Assemblies of God – 2,729,562
African Methodist Episcopal Church – 2,500,000
National Missionary Baptist Convention of America – 2,500,000
Progressive National Baptist Convention – 2,500,000
The Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod (LCMS) – 2,488,936
Episcopal Church – 2,320,221
Churches of Christ – 1,500,000
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America – 1,500,000
Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Inc. – 1,500,000
American Baptist Churches in the U.S.A. – 1,433,075
The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church – 1,432,795
United Church of Christ – 1,296,652
Baptist Bible Fellowship International – 1,200,000
Christian Churches and Churches of Christ – 1,071,616
Jehovah’s Witnesses – 1,041,030
The Orthodox Church in America – 1,000,000
Califander writes: “A reported surge in membership of the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) has placed the communion on the list of the largest American churches.”
I think there is some kind of reporting artifact going on.
The American Religion Data Archive shows GOA membership at 515,000 in 1990, and 518,000 in 2000, which is only 1/2 percent over ten years. OCA is even smaller.
http://www.thearda.com/
An article at the Hartford Institute for Religion Research talks about over-reported membership figures in the Orthodox churches:
“The number of U.S. Orthodox members has been and remains greatly inflated for the North American Orthodox jurisdictions.
“According to this author’s calculation, the real membership (number of adult adherents and their children) in all Eastern Christian Churches in the USA can be estimated at about 1,200,000 persons. This figure is considerably less than the commonly accepted estimations of from two million to as high as over four million Orthodox believers living in the USA.
“The greatest disproportion between “claimed” and actual memberships were found in the two largest Orthodox jurisdictions:
“Greek Orthodox Archdiocese (typically claimed 2,000,000* members versus 440,000 actual adherents)
“Orthodox Church in America (1,000,000* versus 115,000)
“* membership figures are from the Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches, National Council of Churches, 2000.
“The most likely reason for this discrepancy is the common practice of equating Church membership with the total number of representatives of a corresponding ethnic group including second and third American generations of the original immigrants, independent of these persons actual relationship to the Orthodox Church.”
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/research_orthodoxsummary.html
Jim,
OK, this is the third attempted to get this posted. This post will not be as good as the one that just got lost. *sigh*
I would like to address two statements from the site you quoted.
1) ***”According to this author’s calculation,*** the real membership (number of adult adherents and their children) in all Eastern Christian Churches in the USA can be estimated at about 1,200,000 persons. This figure is considerably less than the commonly accepted estimations of from two million to as high as over four million Orthodox believers living in the USA.”
2) “(typically claimed 2,000,000* members versus 440,000 actual adherents)”
First, I would like to challenge the method of the author’s calculations. I was unable to find it in the article. Then secondly, I am going to make (I’m sorry!) an assumption that the author sees a difference between “member” and “adherent”.
As you know, many Orthodox only attend Liturgy on Christmas and Pascha. From a Protestant perspective, this would only make them “members” and not “adherents”. I am disinclined to make a judgment between “members” and “adherents”. We are all working out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We are Orthodox.
And, not to make light of a serious issue within Orthodoxy, if the author only counted people at the beginning of a Liturgy he/she attended, the count is a good 50% off! 😉
In addition, I must go by my own worldview and personal experience. For example:
My church has about 50 members and is about 23 years old. We have been unable to break the 50-member mark. From the outside, it would appear that we could very well be a stagnant church.
Here is the rest of the story:
In the last 20 years, we had members leave to help plant and support three new churches (Greek, Antiochian, and Syrian) started in our area. In addition, we have sent four members to Seminary (only one became OCA, the others went to different jurisdictions), we have one seminarian now, and another beginning in the Fall. We had a Deacon tonsured. We currently have four catechumens.
We are not any different from other Orthodox Churches and we have increased the “Orthodox Church” by pretty close to the 11.11% per year average. But for us, that is only 5/6 new “converts” a year. I suppose the question is: Are they “adherents” or only “members”?
So, I stand by my numbers!
And as a positive consequence to there being more churches, cradle Orthodox will begin attending again because there will be a local church. They will make the change from being a mere “member” to an “adherent”!
Also, people will do as I did. I spent a lifetime looking for the “true Faith”, and by merely STEPPING into an Orthodox Church, knew that I was on Holy ground. Although I was not chrismated for another year, from that moment on, I was already Orthodox in my heart.
So, while the Holy Spirit leads the seekers of the true Faith to the Orthodox Church let us continue worshipping the undivided Trinity!
Blessed be the name of the Lord!